Trial Lawyer View Podcast
Nicholas Norden

Nicholas Norden00:00:00

Mike Morris actually had my partner, Zach Leacox, stand up and he's like, listen, I'm gonna call you out on your ego right now in front of everyone. And he says, who's the best trial lawyer at your firm? And Zach and I both locations. That goes, well, I'm the best. And I go out and the best. Mike goes, that's what he said. Do you guys think you're the best because you're ego? You could go out and hire someone that's better than you to be the trial lawyer at your firm, so you guys could focus on the business and growing this and scaling it.

Jason Lazarus00:00:25

That's Nick Norton, owner of Norton Cox Accent and Injury Law. He recalls how one person called out his ego and forced him to hire better, and how that moment unlocks scale for his firm.

Nicholas Norden00:00:37

Early on, there was an individual that was not the right person, and we should have terminated this individual. And because they were so good at their job, we didn't. And it caused chaos within the firm and nobody wanted to work with this person. Other people weren't happy. We had other people leave because they couldn't work with this person. And finally, when we had the difficult conversation, we terminated that person. It changed the whole atmosphere of our entire firm, and it was night and day. I can't even begin to describe the change. We had, people that had left that called and wanted to come back for Nick.

Jason Lazarus00:01:08

Ego keeps trial lawyers from scaling that choice. Unlock the firm's culture shift. In this episode, you'll learn why one toxic employee caused staff to quit, how hiring and firing strictly on core values prevents that mistake and why? Forged tracking acquisition costs beat lawyer paralysis by analysis. I'm Jason Lazarus, and this is travel review. Nick, welcome to Travel Law Review. And thank you for being with me today on the podcast.

Nicholas Norden00:01:39

Thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here.

Jason Lazarus00:01:41

Yeah, excited to have this conversation today with you. You spent the first part of your career like I did, representing insurance companies and corporate defendants, before switching over to the plaintiff's side. What was the precise moment that you figured out you're on the wrong side of the V? And what did the change cost you in the short term, do you think?

Nicholas Norden00:02:04

I remember I was defending a case, some very, very serious injuries. To some college students. One of them was going to be a college athlete. And unfortunately, because of the injuries to his legs, he never got to experience that. And being on the defense side, my job was to limit the damages. There was no question of liability, but it was get the case resolved for as little as possible. And I felt this person had very significant injuries. But to do my job, you know, we negotiated settlement and it left me feeling empty. There was no you know, you don't feel like you win anything. I felt like the kids didn't get what they truly deserved. And I didn't like that feeling. I didn't enjoy it. And to top it all off, we get done with that, and we're leaving mediation. And the adjusters. Not so much as a hey, good job, great job. You know, you saved us a lot of money. It's just, hey, what about this other case you're working on? Tell me about that. And so I, I said, you know what? That's that's not what I want to feel when I go home. At the end of the day, I wanted to feel more fulfilled. And so I started, looking to switch sides at that point, I guess. What did it cost me? You know, having done the defense, his salary. Yeah. You know, having done the defense side, you know, you're on a nice salary. I left the firm in October, so my Christmas bonus was coming up in December. And, with the billable hours I had done, I had earned a pretty nice, holiday bonus. But, you know, a good friend of mine that was talking to me about it said, hey, you know what? You'll make that up tenfold in the long haul. And, so I, you know, left and as you know, on the plaintiff's side, it's it's eat what you kill. So there's there's not a salary. So, you know, I took a few months to, to to work hard and get back to what I was used to living off of, but it was 100% worth it.

Jason Lazarus00:03:58

Yeah, I get it. I mean, I went through almost exactly the same thing. Of course, I took this alternative career path, which is sort of a hybrid. You know, I saw the law practice, so I still, you know, get, my, my fill of that. But, you know, it was an interesting experience and I felt very similar to you. Just I always felt like I was part of the problem, not part of the solution representing insurance companies. And I did med mal defense and worker's comp, and it just I think you really have to, become a bit jaded to do that for long term too. It's funny because one of my close, buddies from law school should just recently switch, and he's been a med mal defense lawyer since he got out of law. So when we were at the same firm together, I actually started out just switch. So plaintiff sized crazy to me that I was like, what took you this long to decide that now is the time to do it anyway? Just interesting to to see how everybody's paths, you know, ultimately lead them to whatever they feel most comfortable on the side of, you know.

Nicholas Norden00:05:10

Yeah, I 100% agree with that. And welcome to your friend to, the good side, I know.

Jason Lazarus00:05:15

Yeah. I was like, yes. Finally you saw the light.

Nicholas Norden00:05:20

Before.

Jason Lazarus00:05:20

Founding your firm. Normally Cox I you were already lead trial counsel for another, national personal injury firm from doing my research. I'm curious, you know, that that's, again, another, more safe position to be in. What pushed you into wanting to start your own firm and and a law firm ownership? Instead of being just a trial lawyer with another firm.

Nicholas Norden00:05:49

So there's is definitely not one thing. It was kind of a multitude of factors. A big one being my wife. She, you know, pushed me to, to want to do something on my own. At the time, I was doing a lot of traveling. We had two young kids. You know, I was trying cases, out in New Mexico and Colorado, and I'd be gone for weeks at a time. She said, you know, if you start your own firm here in Florida, you don't have to travel as much. So that kind of piqued my interest. But also the fact that I remember flying out for one of those cases where, you know, someone else had been handling the case. And I showed up Thursday evening, met the client on Friday and then started picking a jury on Monday. And going into a case like that where I truly didn't know the plaintiff, it wasn't my case. I hadn't worked it out. I had lived the case. And it's it's hard to go in there and tell their story of what they've experienced, the things they've lost, how these injuries have changed their lives. When you really don't know them. And so I started thinking, I could could do things differently. I could, you know, build a firm where we had less attorneys, you know, the number of cases the attorney had. And we get to know all of our clients very well, get to know what they're experiencing on a day to day, and be able to better tell that story to a jury.

Jason Lazarus00:07:10

Yeah, it's tough walking into a case if you don't really know, to be able to relate to the jury exactly what that person's gone through. I mean, having been through my own personal injury case, you know, I, I know that all too well. And it's so important to be able to communicate that to the jury or, you know, in mediation to the adjuster to get them to understand why they need to actually pay the policy. So that makes a lot of sense. That sort of thing becomes very difficult to manage if you're if you're at someone else's mercy, right? You're you're not alone in your own stuff. You're working on cases that, someone else has worked out. Exactly.

Nicholas Norden00:07:51

You know, a.

Jason Lazarus00:07:52

Lot of trial lawyers build their reputation, the firm's reputation in the courtroom. Yeah, I know as a managing partner, that can be a little bit different in terms of your work and what you're doing day to day. Where did you most underestimate the gap between being a great trial lawyer, what you were doing before and then transitioning at having to run a great firm?

Nicholas Norden00:08:18

I think the biggest thing was understanding how much time I would truly have to put into the business side of things. I think when we were small and we were just starting off and it was, you know, me and Zach and, you know, a paralegal and a receptionist, you know, I was still able to to kind of do everything and handle the day to day trial work as well. And, you know, as you get more and more employees and more direct reports and you're helping them with their issues and what's going on, it eventually becomes, you know, too much and, and you have to really decide, okay, who am I going to bring someone in to run the business side of things? Or am I gonna, you know, bring someone in that's, a great trial lawyer and can step in and handle a lot of the trials or a lot of the case work that I was doing. And so that was a difficult thing to assess. And I even this, you know, at this time, I go back and forth because there's there's time, you know, I love being a trial lawyer. There's times when I want to jump in and do more trial work and stuff. And then there's other times where I feel I need to be doing more of the business side of things.

Jason Lazarus00:09:26

Do you think that that is one of the keys? If a law firm owner is thinking about how do I grow and scale, meaning recognizing that, hey, I may be great at being a trial lawyer, but I'm not great at running a law firm or vice versa, because without, you know, the right people in the right seats around you. Any business. Because I've experienced this within our own company at Synergy, you have to have the right people in the right seats, looking at the right things in order to be successful as a business and law firms, even though I think traditionally have operated differently, really are no different because it is a business. You have to make money, you have to operate efficiently and profitably to be able to do the right things for your clients. So I'm curious about you, how you if you were outside of a law firm today, would would advise someone that's in that position that you were at and trying to figure out how do I how do I structure everything and make sure I'm positioned for success?

Nicholas Norden00:10:40

That's a great question. I can tell you, I think, you know, being a trial lawyer, you're competitive. We all have egos. And that's that's probably the biggest thing that gets in the way. And, you know, we're a member of, fireproof, and we do both their coaching and their masterminds. And, you know, I can remember being at one of their conferences and at the end of the conference, you know, everyone kind of stands up and says, okay, what's changed? What are you going to go and implement? You know, what is the one thing that you're going to go back and change? And Mike Morris actually had, my partner Zach Leacock stand up, and he's like, listen, I'm going to call you out on your ego right now in front of everyone. And he says, he says, who's the best, trial lawyer at your firm? And Zach and I both locations. That goes, well, I'm the best. And I go out there, you know, you're I'm the best. But. And Mike goes, that's bullshit. He said, you guys think you're the best because you're ego. You could go out and hire someone that's better than you to be the trial lawyer at your firm. So you guys could focus on the business and growing this and scaling it. Anyway, it was that push from fireproof and Mike Morse to say he's right. If we're going to scale it and get bigger and grow, we can't let our ego get in the way. We have to go out and find someone or a group of lawyers that care as much as we do. That may be better at some things than we are, and let them do it so that we can grow the firm and and provide the absolute best representation for our clients.

Jason Lazarus00:12:14

Well, I've had Mike on the podcast and Perry Schneider as well, and talk through with them their their framework and have read the book and you know, kind of understand how he took ethos, which is what I had brought to Synergy years and years ago to help us create a framework to operate from. And having talked to Mike about these operating systems and installing on how he took it and kind of morphed it into something that worked well in the personal injury space, that framework, and thinking through again how the business operates, who's, you know, in the the seats that need to be filled, what are the metrics that have to be measured for you to be successful? All of those things. And then having coaches and teams around you that can help you succeed through the mastermind. It really surprises me how few firms and leaders were really leveraging, fully. I think it's starting to change. It seems like particularly with AI and, you know, shifts in terms of the marketplace with this, you know, now prevalence of MSOs and some of the ABS stuff, how it seems to be driving more thought process around. How do we operate a law firm most efficiently and profitably. But it starts to me with those systems and having support around you to help you build that 100%.

Nicholas Norden00:13:48

I think the, you know, the biggest thing is you don't know what you don't know, until you have someone from the outside, to tell you, hey, guys, you know, here's, here's a problem that you have or here's something. Let's look at it in a different way. And, you know, Mike and his firm and their coaching have been great with, you know, they're an open book. They don't mind sharing. And, and you get to learn, you know, from, from mistakes that, you know, they made. Same thing with the masterminds. That's a great thing about talking to other law firm owners is you see what they do well, what they've made mistakes on. And and hopefully you can avoid those mistakes. And, you know, replicate the success they've had.

Jason Lazarus00:15:03

Such a beautiful thing to have that example and have that outside, you know, knowledge base. Because, you know, even when we bring in someone who's not familiar with our industry, we learn stuff because they look at it from a different perspective than we do when we're, you know, mired in the day to day and, you know, the the nuance of our industry. But really, when you boil it all down, all businesses need to operate similarly in terms of just the frameworks, the basic frameworks, I agree. Yeah, I'm sure you probably, like most law firm owners, would, describe the first couple of years of running a firm as relentlessly lonely at the top. I know, you know, when I started Synergy and didn't have a lot around me, that was that was not easy. I'm curious for you, you know, coming from different firms, what that looks like for you and what you did to ultimately get the right perspectives to help you on your journey. I mean, I know you talked about fireproof, but I'm not sure that that was probably around from day one.

Nicholas Norden00:16:22

So it was not around from day one. I would say I probably have a very unique experience compared to a lot of, firm owners or for that matter, you know, CEOs of companies, you know, leaders, leaders in their business. Because, you know, Zach and I have known each other for so long, we've known each other for 20 years now. You know, he was at my wedding. He went with me to my first deposition, my first mediation, my first trial. Well, I have a business background, you know, as a finance degree, he has an MBA. And so, you know, a lot of people are in the position when you're starting a firm and running a firm. Talk about they have no one to talk to or, you know, nobody understands because they have employees. But it's it's a different experience. And I noticed that early on where as the firm grew, I got further and further separated from the employees. I wasn't, you know, just just one of them anymore. But I, I've, I've had Zach the entire time as a sounding board. And so when there are things going on, you know, Zach and I have discussions and we work through things and we figure out the best solution. And he and I, while we have a lot of similarities, I think we also, you know, some of our strengths, are very different. So there are things that maybe I'm not good at that he is great at. And then, you know, there's some other things that I'm sure I'm a little bit better than him at. And so we kind of balance each other out. But when, you know, he he's not only my, my partner who it's like a marriage. I, you know, completely trust him with everything. You know, running, running our lives together. But he's he's also one of my best friends. And our families get along well together. Our kids play together. We go on vacations together. We spend holidays together. So that in, for me, has made it less lonely than I know. A lot of people go through. Because, you know, at night when you're, you know, you have a new worry or new concern or you're trying to fix the problem, you know, I'll reach out to Zach at 1030 at night and, and we'll have a discussion about it and have a conversation rather than I'm at home alone trying to figure it out.

Jason Lazarus00:18:38

Yeah, that's a beautiful thing to have people around you like that, that give you that. And when you don't have that, that's where things like, you know, a fire proof for a mastermind group can be incredibly invaluable. I know I leveraged that because I didn't have as much around me. I mean, I had partners, but we still the outside perspective or different perspectives is is such a a critical thing. And I you know, I wanted to ask you about your, your background, your business background, having a finance degree on top of your JD and also Zach having the MBA. How does that business background show up in the way you guys make decisions about the firm in ways your peers might be missing? Because they don't have that because, you know, in law school and I regret not doing the dual JD MBA track that was available to me at the time. And I didn't really think anything of it at that time. But, you know, there's there is no training around business in law school. And so unless you did your undergraduate work in one of those areas, you don't really have any of that formalized training. I got it on the fly on the job and then did some, you know, education at Rollins. They had a mini MBA program that was, you know, not quite, an MBA, but, you know, give you some of the basics and stuff like that. But I'm just curious, you know, how you think that that background helped you guys? And what PII lawyers in firms that don't have that training maybe missing?

Nicholas Norden00:20:17

I think it was, a huge advantage for us. I, I think that a lot of people hang up their own shingle, you know, they're great lawyers. They start practicing, and and then they're trying to figure out the business side of it. And they, they really don't go into it with a plan. Zach and I, you know, sat down for a few months before we we opened the firm. We wrote out a whole, business plan. We wrote out a whole budget. We had our marketing, you know, plan put together. I mean, we spent hours and, you know, hundreds of hours meeting to go over everything before we were, you know, ready to move forward. And that's all because of the business background that we had. And so, you know, that got us off to a great start. I think it was extremely useful. I think it's, you know, we've ran the firm as a business from day one, which I don't think all lawyers, do initially. I think I think, you know, they're doing the practice of law, and then they have to figure out, well, wait a second. This is a business I have to run it like a business. And the I guess the other thing is, is I feel like in business, you learn sometimes it's about making it, you know, getting 80% of the information and making the decision. It doesn't always have to be the right decision. It has to be a decision. And then you can, you know, pivot if you need to or adjust or change it. I think, you know, a lot of my friends that are lawyers that don't have that business background, a lot of times they fall into paralysis by analysis, and they want to know every single thing before they make a decision. And then sometimes, you know, it's too late, they've missed the opportunity or they've fallen into what the decisions made for them. And I think when you're running a business, one of the most important things is, is being able to gather, you know, the limited information you need to make a decision. And I really think that our business backgrounds kind of prepared us for that.

Jason Lazarus00:22:15

Well, good segue into the question I was going to ask you next, which is when you sit down to make a real business strategic call about the firm, and rather than, you know, some of the minutia around case worker caseloads and that sort of thing, what framework do you use? Can you walk me through how you would think about, something like that that maybe differs from the way other lawyers might go about it?

Nicholas Norden00:22:46

You know, whenever we have a big decision to make, I never try to make, an emotional decision. I try to try to step back and say, okay, what is this going to do for the long term benefit of the firm as opposed to it may be the best decision right now. But that's just a short term decision. So we got to look at the long term. How is it going to affect us, you know, financially, you know, this year, next year, five years down the road, how's it going to affect our our personnel this year, next year? You know, being able to recruit people in the future? There may be times where we need to make a decision where maybe we're not going to make as much profit this year by doing something, but it's going to make future employees want to come work for us three years down the road. And so it's going to make us that much more profitable and desirable. I think it's really when we look at things, you know, we have that that mindset of let's look at what our long term goals. Because when we did that business plan, I mean, we sat out a one year, a three year, a five year, a ten year plan. And what's going to get us to that ten year plan? What do we need to do? There are times we're going to have to take a step back. This year, you know, this month, this week, to take three steps forward in a month or two. And I think that's something that we're, we're very good at. I'm not going to say we do it correct all the time because nobody does that. You make mistakes. But, you know, we are very much looking at the big picture and we let that guide our decisions.

Jason Lazarus00:24:21

Well, so there there is a category of hard decisions around structure, people, workloads that oftentimes law firm leaders delay too long. Is there one decision that you feel like you guys waited too long to make? And, you know, if so, what did that cost you in terms of dollars or whatever it might be that the actual cost was to you?

Nicholas Norden00:24:49

I'd say the hardest part of any business, but definitely what we found out is, is the employees. What I mean, I love my employees, but you do love your employees. And so it is hard when you find someone that, you know, deep down in your gut is not a right fit for your firm, and you like him as a person, you know, they may be have good at certain aspects of their job, but they're not the right person for your firm. And we, you know, it it was, you know, early on there was an individual, there was not the right person. And and we should have terminated this individual. And, and because they were so good at their job, we didn't. And it caused chaos within the firm. And nobody wanted to work with this person. Other people weren't happy. They were. You know, we had we had other people leave, because they couldn't work with this person. And finally, when, when, when we had the difficult conversation, we terminated that person. It changed the whole atmosphere of our entire firm. And suddenly, I mean, and it was night and day, and I. I can't even begin to describe the change. We had people that had left that called and wanted to come back, but we didn't know because this person was a high producer. They were a hard worker. They were just a negative impact. And so, you know, the biggest thing that that has led us to do is we hire, we fire, we train on our core values now, and if someone does not meet those core values, I don't care if they are the best at their job. They're not the right person for our firm. And now we don't wait. You make that decision and move on.

Jason Lazarus00:26:31

A such an important point. We absolutely screen first on our corporate values before fit in terms of their skill sets and their you know, but I use predictive index or desk or some other, you know, mechanism that evaluates fit for their actual role. But if they don't fit culturally, it can become such a nightmare for everyone else on the team. Exactly what you just described and the cost to a business of having what amounts to a cancer, even if they are high performer, it just simply is not worth that. So that idea around, you know what one two is? You know, we we have this mantra, we don't always do it well, but hire slowly and fire quickly because, you know, if somebody is not a good fit, you just cannot allow that to persist because everyone around is looking and watching what you are doing. On your team. And like you said, I mean, we love our team, but there are people that, you know, hopefully self-select out very quickly or, you know, we have to do the right thing for the rest of the team and say, this is a hard decision, but we're going to make it because it's the right answer for the organization 100%.

Nicholas Norden00:27:58

And and I think you gain the respect to your employees when you do that because, you know, then they know that you're going to hold people accountable to your core values. And and that's what they want. They want they want to be respected. And, you know, they want to feel that that you're there to not only take care of your clients, but take care of them.

Jason Lazarus00:28:17

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And with what you guys do and, you know, we're we're adjacent to it. This is making sure the team understands their purpose and what you are trying to achieve for your clients. Having everyone understand the importance of every task that's performed inside of the business that then produces the end result is also critical. And without the right culture and hiring practices, it's almost impossible to get that right. Yep. Yeah. I'm curious. You know, you're you're always into this journey. And, what is one thing that you think you guys got right early on that you would absolutely repeat if you had to start over again from scratch?

Nicholas Norden00:29:08

Yeah. Honestly, it's it's the fire getting involved with the fire proof coaching. And, you know, they hold they hold us accountable, and then we hold, you know, our employees accountable. But it was such a game changer of of getting in there and creating organization, creating better training for our staff and then learning which employees within the firm. You know, we could rely on that, that they were going to be part of our executive team, part of growing the firm, making it better. It's, I look back now and we probably started it in year two, I think maybe maybe three. I wish we had started it sooner. I would tell anyone that starting their firm, get get coaching. You know, I think fireproof is incredible and wonderful. If you're not going to use fireproof, get coaching from someone. You need that outside person, you know, helping you and holding you accountable and having discussions and organizing the team meetings because. Because even now we can get off track a little bit and our coach will be like, hey guys, let's get back on topic. Let's go. Okay. We focus what we need to focus on. But it has been an absolute game changer in everything we did. The community's great, you know, and with the other firms within there, you know, we refer cases back and forth. And so, any money that we spent, we've gotten way more back in, in experience and in referrals. And it's it's an incredible experience. I'd tell anyone to do it.

Jason Lazarus00:30:43

So if you could pick the top three things that you feel like have, been a positive outcome or changes or things you've implemented from your experiences with fireproof or the mastermind? What what would those be?

Nicholas Norden00:31:03

You know, Zach and I were pretty good with the numbers. You know, they talked about you want to have dashboards and things like that, but putting together that dashboard. And I mean, I'm looking at that constantly knowing my numbers, knowing what the case acquisition costs are, knowing how many leads we have, knowing the wanted leads, the conversion rate, you know, all of those things with trying to grow your firm and where your marketing dollars are going. I'm aware of that every second of the day now because of them, like they they John Nichols is said that is, you know, so important. And that guy is an absolute genius with the way he does things. But I've learned so much from him about that. And then, you know, taking the time to have meetings, having the executive team meeting, having your quarterly meetings where you sit down and you plan all your goals for that quarter, your annual meeting. You plan the goals for the year. You put it on paper. You say, this is what we want to achieve. Those things have been game changing for us because again, it's not just Zach and I sitting down and saying, this is what we want to accomplish. It's members of our executive team, and then we're setting those goals and giving them jobs that are all going towards achieving those and growing our firm. And everyone checks in on one another. And if you're not doing what you're supposed to, you know, when you're in that meeting, it's a safe space. Someone can call me out. You know, just because I'm the partner of the firm, I'm one of the owners. If I'm not doing what I need to do. You know someone else in that room can tell me. Hey, Nick, you need to do this. You need to accomplish this. And that's great. And then we come out of that room, and we're a unified front, and we're moving forward with with growing the firm. You know, the third thing is the camaraderie with other like minded, you know, partners at firms. You know, there's firms from all around the country that are going through the same things. We are, you know, they're in the same growth curve. A, you know, been around for 4 or 5, six years. They're kind of at the same revenue level. And to be able to bounce ideas off them, I mean, we have a whole tech group where if we have a question about something, we can shoot it out or, a vendor that we might want to use, you know, and you talked about AI and AI service, you know, how are you utilizing this? What might be better? You know, what are you guys doing in marketing? Being able to bounce those ideas off other firms that, you know, we've all signed, you know, NDAs. And so, you know, it's just between them and everyone in that group has the abundance mindset of, hey, there's plenty of work out there. There's plenty of cases we're all going to do well. I'd love for everyone to grow and double their size in the next 3 to 5 years. Let's all do it together and it's it's just great to have that, to be able to go and bounce ideas off of.

Jason Lazarus00:33:50

Yeah I know. Yeah. And growing our business, it has been absolutely an integral part of our success to be able to lean in on whether it's consultants or business groups. There's so many different ways to go about what you've described, but without that sounding board, you get caught up in the minutia of the day to day, and you don't see, the forest for the trees. And that's dangerous when you're running a business, and particularly when you don't have your eye on the right metrics or you're not hiring. Right. And I mean, all the things we've we've already talked about. So it is such a key part of if you're really looking to grow in scale, having, that kind of framework is invaluable.

Nicholas Norden00:34:42

Absolutely, absolutely.

Jason Lazarus00:34:44

What is, a trap you've seen other lawyers walk into when they decide to leave a firm that they're practicing with, and then open up their own shop based on your experiences.

Nicholas Norden00:34:55

I'd say not being prepared. I feel like a lot of people, you know, they see other people do it, and they they're like, okay, I, you know, I can go hang up my shingle and they go out and again, they may be a very good lawyer and they have a couple of cases, but but they haven't come up with the plan of how am I going to get more cases and when I'm out there doing the networking and the marketing and, and telling people that I'm a good lawyer who's going to be back in the office doing the work so that things are still moving in, that every time I'm out doing that, you know, the office doesn't come to a standstill and so, you know, what I see from a lot of people and a lot of lawyers in general is, you know, we're an industry where there's a lot of burnout. People, you know, are grinding. They're working, you know, 15, 16, 18 hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week. And you just can't sustain that, you know, over the course of a lifetime and be healthy and have a family and be psychologically sound. You just can't. And if you have the mentality of, well, I'm, I'm a very good, you know, lawyer and I'm a hard worker and I'm just going to keep grinding it out. You know, eventually I just feel that you're going to burn out and realize if you don't have the tools in place to scale, you're just going to be stuck at either one, stuck where you're at, and you're never going to grow, or you're going to burn out and decide, maybe I need to do something else.

Jason Lazarus00:36:23

100%.

Nicholas Norden00:36:23

So if you.

Jason Lazarus00:36:24

Look ahead to the next 3 to 5 years for your firm, what is one shift you think you will have in terms of how you spend your time as someone that's managing the firm that you know is coming?

Nicholas Norden00:36:41

Yeah. I have and I've already, you know, we started the shift. I've gotten further and further away from the day to day, handling of cases. I'm much more now involved in, in growing the firm, you know, the marketing aspects are much more involved in the people, and trying to lead them, and, and create that partnership with my, my employees to grow the firm, to see the vision as Zach. Can I have it and and do that? And so what I'm hopeful is that as that grows and we continue to grow, I can, you know, Zach and I will get to the point where we'll bring someone in to kind of run the day to day more, to be more of the cheap offer operating officer, more of that. And so my ultimate what I would love to see is, yeah, I'm doing, you know, some of the, the CEO type things. But I am able to get back into trying, you know, those those catastrophic cases and trying the big cases and being in the courtroom and, and helping clients because for me, that's just something that that does make me feel whole. And it makes me feel good inside to be able to truly help someone that's had a serious injury, you know, no fault of their own, their whole life's been turned upside down. And to really go help them obtain justice. But, you know, that's that's the goal to get back there to to doing a lot more of that, and less of the day to day operations of the firm.

Jason Lazarus00:38:15

But you've been very generous already with your time. A couple more questions. You mentioned it earlier about AI and and with technology really changing things dramatically in almost every aspect of business. What do you see in terms of changes coming as a result of that? And how are you guys evaluating different tools to focus on efficiency and profitability of the law firm? And I, I ask that because, you know, of this shift that seems to be really starting to to have momentum around looking at those things for personal injury firms. Perhaps for a long time. We're we're just not part of the equation because it was viewed more as practice.

Nicholas Norden00:39:15

I think it's going to become a necessity, for all personal injury firms. Especially if they're going to want to grow in scale, they're never going to replace people. I think that's the wrong mindset. I think, you know, I think some people are very afraid of that. I know some staff are afraid of that. We always tell them, because we implement a lot of, of tools and we, we try to stay cutting edge with our technology. This is never going to replace you. This is going to make you more efficient. It's going to give you more time to do the important aspects of your job. And so, you know, at our firm, you know, there are things, okay, medical chronologies, you know, that it used to be an attorney or paralegal had to review every single medical record, the date, what happened to them? I mean, hours, hours. It is sometimes days to put that together, that now you can utilize an AI tool and they can do it in minutes. Now you have to go back and check that and make sure, okay, is this still correct and is it done. But it is making you so much more efficient that you know, now our employees can focus on what's the most important thing, which is client communication, you know, taking care of the clients, making sure that they're doing what they need to do and that they understand what's going on with their case. And so, you know, we've utilized AI and we've, you know, sampled all different, companies. I'm going to say one in particular because there's, there's a lot of good, good ones out there. But, it's a, it's a tool that I think everyone is going to have to implement, in their, their personal injury law firm, if, if they're going to continue to function in this space.

Jason Lazarus00:41:05

Not asking you to, to name, but in terms of your tech stack, are you using case management software plus an AI overlay and then AI and specific areas that would be more administrative, repetitive task? I asked that because, you know, of people I've had on a podcast and others that I've talked to, seems like perhaps there is, a little less intentionality around that than should be, like in terms of mapping out, okay, how can we make sure that we implement things that take off our team administrative, tedious tasks like being purely selfish, like identifying and verifying leads, for example. It's something that law firms do every day. We've just launched, a new solution that allows, you know, a law firm to offload that to a technology with a human in the loop solution, because you kind of need that for, for some specialty. But, you know, thinking through those things in terms of your process, not just that, of course, but, you know, like you said, medical chronologies, anything that's done repetitively, it seems like if you map that out and then look for solutions, that is what will ultimately propel you in terms of more efficient, operations, better profitability and better client experience because the team has more time to spend with clients instead of sitting on all with Medicare or trying to find the right person at Rawlings to talk to you about an A resolution.

Nicholas Norden00:42:45

You're exactly right. And yet we so we have a case management software. And then on top of that we have I am actually I have a couple of, of AI sources that we use depending on what we're doing. We have, another AI that that assists with, setting up, automated text messages or automated messages. You know, so that, you know, you're not having to do that repetitive, thing there we're currently looking at and we're having to be a it hasn't got there yet where I'm comfortable, but there's some AI that they'll call and they'll open up the claims. And, and you know, some of these claims, we have staff. They just sit on the phone for an hour waiting to open up a claim. If you can get to the point where I can do that and do it efficiently, I mean, that's going to save so much time for the staff that they could focus elsewhere, you know, on the more important things. We use AI now where, one of the companies we use, you know, we do medical records requests, and if it doesn't get to us, we don't get the responses. I follows up with them, to check and see what's going on with this and to say, hey, you know, the seven day, it's been seven days, it's been 14 days. Whatever it is that used to be staff that had to follow up on getting medical records and bills all the time, and we have a time period if if the AI doesn't work. Yeah. Then you get a person in the loop that's overseeing it, you know, to to make that phone call if need be. But you're absolutely right. It's those repetitive things. That's going to save them time. And, you know, we're looking at, at all of those and constantly demoing more because I do believe there's going to be a lot of, of AI that will be able to handle those things, even on the phone with other companies. Again, now with our clients, because I'm a firm believer with the size of our firm, that is something that will set us apart, is that you will have the human interaction with your clients. But outside of clients, I think I can be a huge tool.

Jason Lazarus00:44:43

And that's precisely why we launched this solution. It was technology we had actually built internally and then realized, hey, you know, a law firm can deploy this. And instead of having their, you know, people sitting on hold with Medicare and then following up and then same thing with, you know, the different recovery vendors, it's it's time that can be recaptured by the law firm to be deployed in ways that are more, operationally sound and efficient for the law firm. So it is really going to be interesting to watch how this all unfolds and see where the future takes us in terms of those things. But in the end, really, it should all be better for the customer, the, the injured party in terms of their experience. Because if it doesn't help that, then really it's not it's not hitting the right goal in my mind anyway.

Nicholas Norden00:45:40

Absolutely. And that tool that you're talking about, I mean, that sounds amazing. That sounds that's exactly the type of thing I should be used for.

Jason Lazarus00:45:46

Yeah, exactly. All right, last question. I always ask this very open ended. So I will let you answer it however you want. As a trial lawyer and someone who has founded and then scaled your own firm, what's your view?

Nicholas Norden00:46:01

My view is, that I. I feel like I've been very blessed, to be able to to do what I do and love what I do, I feel like there's a lot of people out there that go to work every day, and they're doing a job. You know, I get I get to help people, I get to help people that have been injured that I've had. Something terrible happened to them. Their life's been thrown upside down. You know, their their family's been impacted. And I get to try to make that better. And I get to do that with my best friend, you know, with a firm. And I get to do it with an amazing group of people, that we've been fortunate enough, to to, you know, hire, and work with and, so it my view is that, you know, I'm very blessed and I want to be able to, to give back to the community. To, to show my appreciation for that.

Jason Lazarus00:46:53

Well, so if anybody has questions about anything that you talked about today or has a case, they need to refer to someone, locally here, you're in Orlando. What are your practice areas and a little bit about your firm.

Nicholas Norden00:47:06

Yeah. So, we do, personal injury and wrongful death. Mostly car accidents, premises liability, tractor trailer crashes. And we have seven attorneys here, in the office. Zach, my partner is board certified and in civil trial law, and I've kind of practice all over the country. Tried cases in New Mexico, Colorado, here in Florida. And so we consider ourself a true trial firm. We are going to prepare every case as if it's going to trial. Man, because of that, probably 99% of them, end up reaching a fair resolution for our clients without going to trial.

Jason Lazarus00:47:44

And what's the best way to get in touch? The if someone's got a question or how's a case referred to you guys?

Nicholas Norden00:47:50

Yeah, absolutely. So the, the direct number for the office is 407801 3000. My email is in Norton and my last name is Norden at Norden. Lee Cox, Lisa cox.com I always spell that out because for some reason, everyone can say Norden, but they say Lay Cox or Leah Cox and I think my name is more difficult than Zach's, but.

Jason Lazarus00:48:17

I get it. Well, for our listeners, I've worked with Nick and Zach and the other lawyers in their firm, and they're top notch. So definitely, if you've got something, that you don't want to handle that here in Orlando, they are, they're a great firm to connect with. And, Nick, thank you for your time today and for being on the podcast. And we'll see everyone on the next episode of Trial Law Review.